LT,
Perhaps there is a great multitude of “Lords of this planet” with as many beliefs about the great good of the global interests. You yourself point out that many of them happen to believe their crusade must lead them into Iraq. You yourself happen not to, as do I, Auldsoul and half of the American electorate. Therein lies the problem.
It shows that it is not really the individual that decides, believes or chooses, but a manipulating force, be it a born-again political agenda-setting executive, a defense industry or intelligence service providing information. This is where one gets bogged down in the deep mud of conjecture, nationalistic sentiment, disinformation and propaganda, like all those millions of responsible individuals got bogged down literally in the trenches of Flanders and Verdun. Especially when you start confusing “supporting your country” with “global interests”. The Lords that manage to conjure up the biggest following are justified by their numbers and thus manage to steer towards the more bigoted forms of nationalism.
When push comes to shove, everybody always supports their OWN country, never believing it contradicts the best global interests. The few informed individuals and intellectuals who actually look beyond the short-term interests of their own country to take into account the true, long-term global interests of the weak, usually have to drop out of sight real soon as prophets not honored in their own countries. They form a minority of “traitors” that condemn the bigoted forms of nationalism.
IF we can truly be called Lords of this planet, we should concentrate a little bit less on belatedly supporting our own respective countries in war, instead serving the best global interests by trying to resort LESS to force through preventative measures. National self-interest and pride often stand in the way.
With hindsight many would agree (except the WTS) a timely dispatching of a military peacekeeping force to Rwanda would have been called for.
VG
Van Gogh
JoinedPosts by Van Gogh
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74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
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74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
I forgot to thank for the most outspoken dissenting opinions as well, as expressed by heathen and proplog2. These comments from the latter poster resonated with me in particular:
"The real deal is overcoming nationalism. The Bible is a story about transcending human selfishness. The selfishness of nations is an unecessary exaggeration of the selfishness that helped humans evolve in the first place...Nationalism is the greatest evil on earth... War makes widows and orphans."
Overcoming and transcending.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Auldsoul,
When you read my previous posts on this thread, you will see that already completely agree with point made by Narkissos:
“What we didn't want to see is that consciencious objection makes much more sense (whether one likes it or not) when it is really grounded on individual conscience, not the rules of an organisation imposed to its members under social penalty (d'fng and shunning).” A wrested conscience is a contradictio in terminis.
I admire my friend from the “group within a group” for his principles. He would have objected to serving, regardless of the org. It is just that the standpoint of the org facilitated and attracted the adherents to this stance. It is interesting though that he can barely keep his eyes dry when we walk through my neighborhood and streets where he lived during the war as a child. (Anne Frank lived five streets down from me.) Tens of thousands of Jews were deported from here. But to HIM, this is his main motivation for being a conscientious objector. He is proud of the years he spent in jail paying for his principles. And yes, to him there is no just war – the same position as the org. I have not yet developed a meaningful post-org position on the subject discussed here and have yet to examine my motivation.
Incidentally, I just learnt that my nephew recently joined the Dutch army. I cannot say I am not a little bit proud of him. I do have the secret fascination with the male martial thing. When I was drafted in 1981, I could have opted for the UN peace-keeping mission in Lebanon. A lot of guys returned pretty screwed up from that. During my medical, I ran into a fellow Jdub whose unbelieving dad was actually a rear admiral. He joined.
You are right, the neutral/anti-war position is imposed and its value therefore substantially diminished or even negated. But fighting someone else’s war is also imposed, whether through law or group pressure. Under these circumstances, individual conscience can be buried or be absent. That’s the whole problem.
Just playing the Devil’s advocate here in trying to explain an organizations anti-war stance ?, Once you have a Highly Controlled global Religious organization, its individual members become less anonymous and identify with each other. You might run into one wearing another uniform (but the same assembly badge). At a certain level this policy will promote “peace” or solidarity within that group. A necessary precondition for creating and maintaining a brotherhood or common bond within this organization, facilitating its survival. Cultic? The same mechanisms are at work in forging the common bond within a fighting band of brothers.
Thanks everybody for all your comments and input; I respect them. Sorry to ramble and please, go easy on me ;-) I am re-examining long held beliefs for myself outside of matrixes or imposing mentors. Less judging; more leeway.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Honesty:
Point taken. I defer.
Adding to this, for many people the holocaust is a valid reason not to believe in God.
From that perspective, mankind (represented by those in power) perhaps failed a Divine obligation/commission to take responsibility to protect against evil... and honor the Divine in ourselves.
It all depends in which stage we choose to negate the evil. But you are right, once you arrive at the killing fields action seems to be called for. In that case, we "enlightened" humans are guilty for letting Combodia, Rwanda, etc happen.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Thanks everybody for you comments!
It will give me a lot to think about.
I find it interesting that a principle that to me signified an essential part of Christianity, does not present a dilemma for most of the posters here. In comparison I read a lot on JWD about feeling guilty about something minor as taking part in celebrating birthdays etc. Birthdays present themselves every other week or month though.
I guess the "just war" dilemma will become evident for a Christian when actually deciding if a war is to be considered just, when taking responsibility for it, enlisting, looking the enemy in the eyes and pulling the trigger without a bad conscience
In that scenario, there is a problem when subject to a draft in an unjust war. In case of a war to be considered just without a draft, and you are in a position to enlist, do you join or hide behind morals? A lot of the participants will be at a carefree age. It also depends from which side of the argument the group pressure comes.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Auldsoul,
I am not talking about a (neutral) organization as such or Jehovah’s Witnesses as a (neutral) group. Jim Penton did all the homework on that one.
As I stated in my first post in this thread: it is about a sense of global brotherhood; (not the organization as such) it is about sincere motivation of Christian love; it is about what one actually practices; it is about an end result. It is about a group of sincere peace loving individuals who happen to belong to a larger group, organization or church. A larger group can somehow facilitate a smaller group of individuals. The latter is the group I am referring to and have encountered. It is not an organization. It would rather transcend an organization.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Kenneson:
I’m trying to approach this subject from someone’s (perhaps mine as well) gut perspective (naked faith) of what could be an identifying mark of true individual Christians that ironically happens to be expressed through an organization that stands between (as in obstructs) Christ and his members. It could either be an objectionable “wonderful work” (Matthew 7:22-23) or an identifying mark of people who are unwittingly Christian in their conduct a la Matthew 25:35-40 (Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee?)
In this perspective it is the end result and the sincere motivation of love that counts, whether originating from a Quaker or a Jdub. Whatever other beliefs are professed by such persons about a war-killing God are harmless and inconsequential, however right or wrong they might turn out to be. Besides, Christ is said to have turned the other cheek, and is said to have admonished his followers to love their enemies.
Admittedly, I’m in a tight corner here, judging by the answers I am getting here. This is where Narkissos saves my ass, as he – as usual - concisely phrases where my (friends) position originates from: The post-WW II European pacifist perspective. The indelible experience of war and racism ensuing from nineteenth-century nationalism and war. German Christians ended up fighting for what were perceived as just wars from 1870 onwards. They ended up on the wrong side of the (ultimately concentration camp) fence. My dads Catholic cousins were proud of their Hitler Jugend uniforms, raised as they were with their anti British and anti Communist sentiments. My dads uncle served in the Waffen SS in Russia. To them, fighting the commies was just, as it was later on to the Americans in Korea and Vietnam (Kissinger did some orchestrating there). Enlisting in the army, one did not have the option of ticking a box for either A. Auschwitz B. Stalingrad or C. the Western Allies. So I am a bit apprehensive as to the validity of defending your country or cause.
Here in the Netherlands, at the war memorial on Liberation Day 5th of May (Holland was mainly liberated by Canadians, so thank you Jgnat). Jehovahs Witnesses are often mentioned in the official speeches. A disproportionate 110.000 Jews never returned to the Netherlands, and Jdubs somehow were spared sharing the shame of my dads family. WW II contributed to both sets of my grandparents becoming JWs.
Narkissos: “really grounded on individual conscience, not the rules of an organization imposed to its members under social penalty.” This indeed negates the value of the average, individual JWs neutrality stance. A strong argument.
Jgnat:
Who do we need to use swords against? Bully Saddam H who was armed and created by a Western sword industry doing the dirty work of killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians by proxy? Who decides who are the bullies? At one time the Russians thought the bullies were NATO and NATO thought the bullies were in the USSR. You will get caught up in a political matrix doing politicians dirty work. Vietnam vets and thousands of Dutch casualties in post WW II Indonesia will confirm this.
M.J.
Yes, self defense is clearly defined until the worms crawl out of the can. That’s where you’re bound to end up.
Gumby:
Christians could have taken up arms to defend themselves against persecution. No Pax Romana there. They did not take up arms. Perhaps a single battle can be noble, not a whole war. Even Gandhi understood the merits of non-violence.
Metatron:
We are talking from the perspective of a Christian – true or not. From your perspective I could perhaps agree. But I won’t. Why use war instead of preventative measures of social justice for solving problems in Congo or Darfur? It is all politics. They failed horribly in Rwanda. Why get caught up in it.
Auldsoul:
The identifying mark of Jesus' disciples is love. This could in a rudimentary way be applied to abstinence of war. I agree, the only way in which love can be demonstrated is individually, not the rules of an organization imposed to its members under social penalty. So your logic works for me? I’m not so sure about your contrasting of organization vs individual. There is a lot of talk in Christianity of body and congregation. Besides, I am not defending an organization. It is about group of sincere peace loving individuals who through their actions could also be shunned or hated by society in general. Like my friend, me or Narkissos, this could be cause for - at one time or another - identifying with a part of Christianity which happens to occur within an organization.
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
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Van Gogh
Hellrider:
I know, refusing to serve can be idealistic; but then you’ve got to start somewhere…
Ultimately you have to stand up for your own beliefs or conscience or risk getting caught up in a war that is at that time being perceived, or being sold by politicians, as just, yet with hindsight turns out to have been unjustified. Many veterans look back with regret on the atrocities they inadvertently got caught up in while fighting so called atheist, godless commies.
There is a lot of controversy on whether fire-storming hundreds of thousands of Germans in one night in strategically unimportant German cities was the most effective way to go about it. Yet, the Nazi death camps and the few simple railroads leading up to them were left untouched until the very end. The most important ally in the war against Germany did the dirty work left unfinished by the Nazis when it (the USSR) ethnically cleansed huge territories of eastern-Europeans, and "relocated" many of them to the mass graves. Why wasn’t a just war initiated against it? What is a just war? Where does one draw the line? We applaud the conscientious objectors in the Third Reich for not getting caught up in an unjust war. But do you always know in advance where you will get caught up in?
George W is a born-again Christian who started a “just” war. But just consider the position taken ultimately by an unbelieving participant for purely personal and conscientious motives: Pat Tillman? Where does this leave a Christian?
VG -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
-
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Van Gogh
Honesty:
Hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the trenches. If they had refused the orders of their irresponsible generals, they might have been executed anyway, but without adding to the bloodshed. It is a matter of individual Christian responsibility. Whether Christians kill other Christians or Muslims does not matter.
Lovelylil:
Anyone that would conscientiously take his/her individual responsibility to refuse war could have a favorable position with Christ (including Muslims), including the many individual JWs. What is your position on those that profess to be Christian AND kill in a war?
Metatron:
“Neutrality is nonsense”. Isn’t that a nihilistic point of view? This will ultimately excuse anyone. Everybody draws the line somewhere.
Star Moore:
Whatever you say. Who knows. But it is about taking ones individual responsibility in acting in the spirit of Christianity, for instance: “all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword”. Why not take the lead. According to Christianity Christ is a reality right now, and is in that view practised by partaking in him right now; the fruit of the spirit to be cultivated right now – not wait till the great trib. -
74
True Christians neutral in War?
by Van Gogh intoday i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.
in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.
he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.
-
-
Van Gogh
Today I re-established contact with an older – true - friend who is still a JW. In the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd. He is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his Bible. A couple of years ago he was ousted as an elder for being too critical of the org. during a CO visit.
I had been afraid our friendship was in danger when I told him I had left a couple of months ago.
His position is somewhat ambiguous and hard to pin down. Convinced that it is the truth, but otherwise keeping an open mind as to the outcome of it all. To cut it short, he is loyal to God who he thinks works through his JW people. He is old school sincere. Though an independent thinker and well read, he does not know a lot about the theological arguments and facts available on for instance JWD. He does not seek out those kinds of facts or truths. But his faith is sincere, unshakable and from the gut. He has a great love for the international brotherhood and people in general. I find his faith in the good of people and a loving God inspiring.
His main - gut - argument is from Isaiah 2:4:
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
He argues that the global brotherhood of JWs (not the organization as such) are the only ones that actually practice this simple, though effective trait of true Christianity in everyday life. To me as well this used to be the identifying mark of truth – despite the many cover-ups, falsehoods, fallacies, wrongs and injustices of the organization and its apologist henchmen.
I still find it a compelling argument.
What do you think?
VG